Friday, August 8, 2014

Was it necessary to attack the ministry Mormon Outreach and Rocky Hulse personally for having a difference of opinion?



I agree with Moroni 8:18": No. No, I don't!


by Rocky Hulse

August 2011

With the best of intentions, there are a few ministries today that set out using a verse of Mormon scripture (Moroni 8:18) to get Mormons to question one of their foundational beliefs: That God was not always God. I would not argue with the use of the verse to make that point; I believe Moroni 8:18 does make this point when compared with the Mormon doctrinal position of God today compared to the time the Book of Mormon was printed. The problem with these well meaning individuals is that they have labeled this approach as: “I agree with Moroni 8:18.” From the perspective of agreeing with Mormon scripture, I take exception. I believe it is wrong to agree with that which is known to be false. Spiritual truth is not contained in any Mormon scripture. Period!
The foundation upon which Christianity is built is God’s inerrant word, the Bible. From the Bible, we are repeatedly warned to beware of false prophets (1) and false teachers (2).  Is there any question within the community of ministries that witness to the Mormon people that Joseph Smith was a false prophet? Without question, the answer is: No! Is there any question within the community of ministries that witness to the Mormon people that Joseph Smith was a false teacher? Without question, the answer is: No! Is there any question within this same community that the Book of Mormon is an additional book of inspired scripture. Without question, the answer is: No, it is not scripture; it is a book of fiction.
The Title Page of the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon lists the following statement: “BY JOSEPH SMITH, JUNIOR, AUTHOR AND PROPRIETOR.” There is no question that Joseph Smith produced the Book of Mormon and he is known to be a false prophet and false teacher. Why then, would I agree with anything that he wrote purporting to be spiritual truth? The supporters of the “I Agree With Moroni 8:18 Campaign,” then chime in with, “What about Paul’s use of the Greek poets in Acts 17.” The creators/supporters of “I agree with Moroni 8:18” are following this premise: “There are those today who use Acts 17, Paul’s Mars Hill encounter with the Greek philosophers to prove that truth is found elsewhere, and the Bible is not the only place that contains spiritual truth.” (3)  This approach is flawed on two major counts in that they are saying: (1) Paul believed truth was found in the Greek philosophers; (2) spiritual truth is contained in Mormon scripture. They are wrong on both counts.
I encourage you to go and read the full article, Paul’s Mars Hill Appeal, written by “Let Us Reason Ministries,” provided in footnote (3). It is well written and I agree with the writer. I will provide some excerpts from that article to support my position; however, my minor quotes do not do justice to the complete article.
(1) Paul believed truth was found in the Greek philosophers:
In Acts 17:28, Paul quotes the Greek poet Epimenides, in his work, Cretica: “for in Him we live and move and have our being,”. He also quotes the Cilician poet, Aratus, in his work, Phaenonlena 5: “for we are also his offspring.”
Quoting from Paul’s Mars Hill Appeal: Paul used another pagan source to confirm the truth of the Bible, not the reverse, he was showing them how their own poets had some knowledge (though corrupted) of the God he is speaking to them of that they do not know. If he was saying their poet spoke truth then he would be endorsing Zeus a false god, the very thing he was trying to prove to them….What he quoted  was directly opposing the view of the Epicureans. Here Paul is citing poets who they respected and brilliantly turned it on their idolatry they now practiced. Paul has made a case that as men we have a necessary dependence on this God they do not know or see. He inserted their own poet’s statements as an added incentive to consider that their worship was wrong. He juxtaposed what was said in the past for what is being practiced in the present. If Paul meant they were actually God’s offspring He would be agreeing with the gods of Greek philosophy. He did not! This is poetry quoted, not doctrine, nor Scripture….He uses their poets point for a similarity of what he is conveying that is wrong, not what is right. Paul is using their own poet against their idolatry. He is not condoning their poet’s words as truth equal with the Bible’s revelation but dismantled their own view by using it as a similar point to present the Bible’s revelation.” (emphasis mine).
The attempt that proponents of the “I Agree With Moroni 8:18 Campaign” use to validate their use of Mormon scripture and saying they agree with it as Paul agreed with the Greek poets, is an improper exegesis of the Acts 17 text.  Using Moroni 8:18 to show that Mormon doctrine is false is a worthwhile tactic; however, to agree with Moroni 8:18, giving it the validity of spiritual truth is wrong and is directly opposite of Paul’s use and intention at Mars Hill.
(2) Spiritual truth is contained in Mormon scripture:
Believing that spiritual truth can be contained in Mormon scripture is to believe that truth can come from error; it cannot. “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” (2 Co. 6:14). Mormonism is a false teaching. Period! We are repeatedly warned as seen in footnotes (1) and (2) concerning those who would bring forth false teachings. There is no question that Joseph Smith, and all he produced, fits those Biblical warnings.
Part of the problem with the  “I Agree With Moroni 8:18 Campaign” is a foundational ignorance that is sometimes displayed by those who are involved in ministry outreach to Mormons, but were never members of the Mormon Church themselves. Those who were never Mormons themselves, have studied greatly, and have done a great work in the Mormon community; however, all the reading and studying in the world cannot replace the first hand experience of having lived Mormonism. I spent 33 years on active duty in the United States Navy, 20 years of that time riding Navy ships at sea. Reading every available book or periodical about life at sea cannot bring a person to the reality of what it is like to sail aboard a modern naval vessel at sea.
These well-meaning individuals supporting the “I Agree With Moroni 8:18 Campaign” fail to consider the basic reality that Mormonism uses a different dictionary than the rest of the English speaking world. Mormonism’s definition of many religious terms does not match that of Mainstream Christianity. This failure stem’s from not having a Mormon indoctrination foundation. They approach the words of Moroni 8:18 from their English definition, vice their Mormon definition; this is a flawed baseline position. Even though the premise of this is to show that Joseph Smith’s concept of God in 1830 was more closely aligned with Christianity, and definitely doesn’t align with his later pluralistic teaching of multiple gods, and God being a changeable being, non-exMormons do not take into account the indoctrination aspect of the cult culture, nor the misuse of words.
The word “God” used in Moroni 8:18 does not reflect the God of the Bible. The word “God” in Mormonism, really means “Heavenly Father,” and is an exalted man who once lived on another planet in another universe and lived, died, was resurrected, and was exalted to Godhood and eventually became the God of this universe. That corrupted concept contains no spiritual truth as contained in the Bible.
The words: “changeable, unchangeable, and eternity,” all have a time component tied to them that does not exist in Christendom. Since Mormon doctrine has Heavenly Father existing in a previous world where he rose through the concept of “Eternal Progression” through eons of time to achieve Godhood and then create this universe for the “exaltation” (meaning the achievement of Godhood by those who are deserving Mormons) of his children he procreated to inhabit this earth, the words: “changeable, unchangeable, and eternity” only pertain to the dispensation (timeframe) of this universe, not time immemorial.
Understanding these two concepts helps to better understand where those of us who disagree with the “I Agree With Moroni 8:18 Campaign” are coming from. In our modern English vernacular, it appears that Moroni 8:18 reflects Biblical teaching. From the dictionary of Mormonism, it does not. So, to agree with Moroni 8:18, as if it were spiritual truth, is blasphemous.
In a local context, using the  “I Agree With Moroni 8:18 Campaign” may cause some Mormons who are not fully indoctrinated to question their concept of God, and may appear to be a victory; however, in the bigger picture, to agree with the Book of Mormon is to pour fuel on the fire of the Mormon Public Relations machine that is trying its best to morph Mormonism in the minds of Christendom as just another Christian denomination; it is not.
Do not misinterpret my support of using Mormon scripture, the writings or sermons (talks, as they are called in Mormonism) of Mormon Prophets and Apostles, Mormon periodicals (Ensign, Era, Young Woman’s Journal, etc.), or Mormon Church produced materials (Sunday School manuals, Priesthood Manuals, Relief Society Manuals, BYU Religion course manuals, etc.), to counter the false teachings of Mormonism. I fully support the use of these materials, and I certainly quote from them on a regular basis in all facets of our ministry (Mormon Missions Midwest Outreach (MMMO)). What I will not do is agree with any quotation from Mormonism as being spiritual truth on par with the Bible. No part of Mormonism, even if plagiarized from the Bible, has a foundation of spiritual truth. Mormonism’s foundation is centered in Joseph Smith, a known false prophet and false teacher that the Bible gives us stern warnings about, as seen in footnotes (1) and (2). Anything therefore that emanates from Mormonism cannot, and is not, spiritual truth!
Another point that those who were never Mormon have no exposure to, and a true ignorance of, is the dogmatic indoctrination points that are spewed out upon family members when they dare to challenge Mormonism and attempt to share with their family the truth of God’s word as found in the Bible. Until you’ve stood toe-to-toe with your father, your mother, your brothers or sisters, and had them emphatically regurgitate the Mormon doctrinal points and proof texts, and call you a “Son of Perdition” if you don’t come back to the fold of Mormonism, you truly don’t “get it.” Believe me, “I get it!” I’ve been there, done that.
The bonds of Mormonism are so strong, so all encompassing, that reason, especially in the “family member leaving Mormonism” context, does not exist. In an emotional setting, a family member discussing why Mormonism is false with a Mormon family member, reason and good judgment are usually left by the wayside. In this type of setting, to use the phrase “I Agree With Moroni 8:18”, would be the equivalent of saying “I agree with the Book of Mormon.” It matters not that the context was to use Moroni 8:18 to disprove the current Mormon concept of the Godhead, all that is heard in the diehard Mormon is an agreement with the Book of Mormon. The indoctrinated Mormon brain shuts down and no reasoned, thoughtful argument can, or will be heard. I’ve been there more times than I care to remember, and only those who have been there can understand this awful predicament; nor have suffered the heartbreak the eventual end of the discussion/argument brings.
IN CONCLUSION:
Using any verse in the Book of Mormon to disprove Mormonism is a worthwhile venture and a tactic I approve of and use myself. However, to use a verse of Mormon scripture, or a quote from a Mormon leader, or quote from a Mormon periodical, stating that you agree with that statement by placing it on par with the Bible as spiritual truth, is BLASPHEMOUS!
Use Moroni 8:18 all you like to disprove the false teaching of Mormonism. However, to agree with Moroni 8:18, is to give validity to Mormon scripture as equal with God’s Scripture, the Bible, and that is something that only those ignorant of the full scope of Mormonism would do. They do not understand the damage they are doing to those of us who are trying to witness to Mormon family members.

1 De. 13:5; 18:22; Is. 9:15; Je. 2:8; 5:31; 14:14; 23:16; Eze. 13:2; 22:28; Ho. 9:7; Mi. 3:5; Zep. 3:4; Zec. 13:3; Mt. 7:15; 24:11; Mk. 13:22.
2 Mt. 5:19; 15:9; 1 Ti. 1:7; 4:2; 6:3; 2 Ti. 4:3; Tit. 1:11; 2 Pe. 2:1.
 Mormon Outreach - Topical Index

Read and compare the two articles and the tone displayed in each article.  Not once did I name another ministry or person in my article above. I expressed my opinion based upon my research. 

Rob Sivulka, on the other hand in his article below found it necessary to attack us personally and use a captured photo from our TV show 'Truth Outreach' (the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping) which is found on our MMMO copyrighted website: Mormon Outreach TV shows.


Responding to Rocky Hulse's Critique of the Moroni 8::18 Campaign

Introduction

My screen shot of the Hulses from one of their videos
My screen shot of the Hulses from one of their videos
Rocky Hulse of Mormon Missions Midwest Outreach has written an explanation of why he disagrees with Christians claiming they agree with the Moroni 8:18 campaign on his Facebook page called “'I agree with Moroni 8:18': No. No, I don’t!” Moroni 8:18 is a passage in the Book of Mormon (BM) that simply says, “For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.” Many Christians, whether they claim to agree with it or not, have jumped on this to ask LDS why they don’t agree with their own scripture. Current LDS teaching is that “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man… I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345 [pre-2002 editions]).

On August 18th, 2011 (8:18), many Christians used this date to post on their Facebook walls and other places that they agree with Moroni 8:18, and wonder why Mormons do not. The intent was to open up some dialogues with Mormons concerning the nature of God, and how they need to repent of their God who is an exalted man. The call is to trust, not simply the unchanging God of the Book of Mormon, but ultimately the God of the Bible. This We Agree with 8:18 campaign was the brain-child of Aaron Shafovaloff, who works with Mormonism Research Ministry and is also a board member for our ministry—Courageous Christians United.

Since Shafovaloff asked for some defense, I am writing this response to Hulse. This article will demonstrate that Hulse’s attack on the 8:18 campaign is inconsistent with his own practices, lacking biblical basis, is an appeal to authority, a confusion on the nature of truth, and divisive to the Body of Christ. I have been grieved at the un-Christlike statements being leveled at Shafovaloff, my brother in the Lord, by many individuals, and Hulse’s article fuels that fire. This is a fire that needs extinguishing.

Inconsistency

Hulse claims that one can use LDS sources to show how Mormons are inconsistent. So when he uses LDS sources, he simply uses them to his own advantage. For example, when he started each of his TV shows on Mormonism, he favorably quoted Brigham Young. Husle said, “As always on this program we like to give a couple quotes that we think legitimizes what we do here. And the first one is from Brigham Young, and he said, 'I say to the whole world, receive the truth, no matter who presents it to you. Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test'” (e.g., see here). Hulse continued to use that passage from the LDS Journal of Discourses (JD) 16:46 (which by the way, Young thought of his own sermons as scripture in 13:95) to get LDS to do what he wants them to do. Hulse claimed, “We believe these quotes justify what we do.”

On the surface, anyone would naturally think that Hulse agrees with what Young said. However, Hulse is quite emphatic that he will not agree with any Mormon scripture. He says, “From the perspective of agreeing with Mormon scripture, I take exception. I believe it is wrong to agree with that which is known to be false. Spiritual truth is not contained in any Mormon scripture. Period!” Later he says, “There is no question that Joseph Smith produced the Book of Mormon and he is known to be a false prophet and false teacher. Why then, would I agree with anything that he wrote purporting to be spiritual truth?”

So at this point, one has to wonder, first of all, was Brigham Young’s statement a “spiritual truth”? If not, why not? Should it be called a natural or false truth? What in the world would that be? I will return to this point latter under the discussion of the nature of truth.

Second of all, how is what Hulse uses for his purposes in the JD deemed false if he uses it to “justify what we do”? It seems pretty clear that Hulse is caught in an inconsistency. He implicitly agrees with the JD quote--that we should agree with the truth wherever we find it--but he cannot agree with what the 8:18 crowd is doing.

Lacking Biblical Basis

Hulse critiques the support for 8:18 on the basis of Paul debating the Epicureans and quoting the pagan writers in Acts 17. Hulse argues, first of all, that Paul used their writings not to prove the truth of what they wrote, but to confirm the truth of the Bible. Then Hulse claims that if Paul were to claim they spoke the truth, then he would be endorsing the false god Zeus. Hulse implicitly agrees with a quote from a Let Us Reason Ministries article called “Paul’s Mars Hill Appeal”, which said, “What [Paul] quoted was directly opposing the view of the Epicureans. Here Paul is citing poets who they respected and brilliantly turned it on their idolatry they now practiced. …If Paul meant they were actually God’s offspring He would be agreeing with the gods of Greek philosophy. He did not!”

In response, just because Paul’s ultimate goal was getting his crowd to believe the Bible doesn’t entail that he did not also agree with what the pagans had written. Hulse simply begs the question that agreeing with some statement is equivalent to endorsing their false god. How does that follow? For Paul to endorse the pagan truths--“for in Him we live and move and have our being” and also “for we are also his offspring”--simply points out that making graven images is inconsistent with these truths. But in Hulse’s mind, they can’t be truths, since they are from pagan sources. Again, there is no good argument here why individual statements in pagan sources cannot be true. Hulse just has an immediate emotional reaction against anything pagan. There is nothing wrong with emotional reactions against paganism, but when that takes the place of good reason, then we don’t have any reason not to agree with the pagan statements.

Similarly, the 8:18 crowd also wants to confirm the truth of the Bible. They are not content to simply let LDS work out an inconsistency between the BM and current teaching all by themselves. The 8:18 crowd wants LDS to see that the BM is true when it agrees with what the Bible has always taught (e.g., Psalm 90:2). Just like Paul did not endorse his current audience’s false god, the 8:18 crowd doesn’t endorse the current LDS false god. Both Paul and the 8:18 crowd are drawing on truths from non-biblical sources that their current audiences should accept, and those truths are consistent or “on par” (to use Hulse’s language) with the Bible.

Next, Hulse argues,“Believing that spiritual truth can be contained in Mormon scripture is to believe that truth can come from error; it cannot. “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” (2 Co. 6:14). Mormonism is a false teaching. Period!” The argument is extremely weak. “[T]ruth cannot come from error,” seems to be a reference to an errant source. But that is commonly known as the genetic fallacy. But just because I learned 2+2=4 from a witch doesn’t entail it is not true or that there are not any good reasons to believe it. Similarly, just because an individual like an LDS may come to hold 8:18 doesn’t entail that it is not true or there are no good reasons to believe that truth.

As for 2 Corinthians 6:14, legalistic fundamentalists often like throwing this verse out when they want other Christians to stay away from something they don’t like (e.g., music, democrats, clothing, dancing, certain scientific theories, etc.). Hulse uses this verse to scare people away from discovering any truth in the BM. Recall that the same author of this 2 Corinthians passage was the same individual who agreed with pagan sources in Acts 17 as well as 1 Cor. 15:33. Further, Matthew 5:45 is clear that we have at least the sun and rain in common with the unjust, so I don’t think that Hulse is being fair in using this passage. The context of the 2 Corinthians passage is simply talking about purity and not being corrupted by that which is unclean (cf. vs. 17). The passage has nothing to do with abstaining from seeking truth or wisdom outside the Bible, including pagan sources. I am not being unequally yoked if I believe or agree with the Satanic Bible that “dogma… is necessary (50),” for example, since Satan can go to hell as far as I am concerned.

Finally, the Apostle Paul was in agreement with the Prophet Amos who used and agreed with moral principles found within nature that the Gentiles were held responsible with. Amos preached to the Gentile nations that did not have the Old Testament. Nonetheless, they, like the pagans Paul addressed, should have known better. This should not surprise us, since Psalm 19 and Romans 1 is very clear about the knowledge of God revealed clearly to all in nature and outside the Bible. God is omnipresent, and His truth lightens everyone that comes into the world (Jn. 1:9). Proverbs tells us that wisdom cries out from the streets (1:20) and we are instructed to go and learn a lesson from the ant (6:6). It is simply beyond belief that unbelievers could not codify some of these natural principles into false scriptures or at least authoritative writings (e.g., the Code of Hammurabi).

Appeal to Authority

Having been LDS himself, Rocky seems repulsed by the idea of agreeing with anything Mormon. As a result of this baggage, he assumes that there is no truth in anything Mormon that he could agree with. To do so in his mind is to give validity to the Mormon Church. Further, he seems to generalize the 8:18 crowd as never living as Mormons, who obviously don’t know how to really deal with the LDS mindset. He says,

“Part of the problem with the ‘I Agree With Moroni 8:18 Campaign’ is a foundational ignorance that is sometimes displayed by those who are involved in ministry outreach to Mormons, but were never members of the Mormon Church themselves. Those who were never Mormons themselves, have studied greatly, and have done a great work in the Mormon community; however, all the reading and studying in the world cannot replace the first hand experience of having lived Mormonism. I spent 33 years on active duty in the United States Navy, 20 years of that time riding Navy ships at sea. Reading every available book or periodical about life at sea cannot bring a person to the reality of what it is like to sail aboard a modern naval vessel at sea.

These well-meaning individuals supporting the ‘I Agree With Moroni 8:18 Campaign’ fail to consider the basic reality that Mormonism uses a different dictionary than the rest of the English speaking world. Mormonism’s definition of many religious terms does not match that of Mainstream Christianity. This failure stem’s from not having a Mormon indoctrination foundation. …[N]on-exMormons do not take into account the indoctrination aspect of the cult culture, nor the misuse of words.”

Hulse goes on to tell us that he knows that Mormons really won’t have a problem anyway with 8:18, since it becomes reinterpreted according to the Mormon lens. This lens simply imposes current Mormonism onto 8:18. In effect, Hulse is claiming that given his insider knowledge, no Mormon is going to struggle with fitting 8:18 into their worldview.

In logic, we call this the fallacy of appealing to authority. Hulse is the enlightened one, since he has been on the inside and he knows better than all the rest of those in the 8:18 crowd.

There are at least three problems here. First, I personally know a number of former Mormons who have participated with or at least approve with the 8:18 campaign (including no less than Sandra Tanner of Utah Lighthouse Ministry). Are they now not as competent as Hulse? They have insider knowledge as well, but they think that 8:18 may be valuable for at least some LDS, including those who have been fully indoctrinated family members. Second, the 8:18 crowd is not as ignorant as Hulse paints them. One doesn’t need insider knowledge to realize the heavy indoctrination LDS go through. Third, Hulse’s authority is not on par with the Prophet Amos and the Apostle Paul, and we have already seen how they believed God could use truths from outside the Bible (regardless of the immediate source) that unbelievers should believe.

Confusion on the Nature of Truth

Hulse, as already stated, has said, “Spiritual truth is not contained in any Mormon scripture. Period!” He goes on to affirm that he uses LDS sources all the time for his purposes, but says, “What I will not do is agree with any quotation from Mormonism as being spiritual truth on par with the Bible. No part of Mormonism, even if plagiarized from the Bible, has a foundation of spiritual truth.” In fact, Hulse says that “to agree with Moroni 8:18, as if it were spiritual truth, is blasphemous.”

I agree with all the passages in the BM directly quoted from the King James Version of the Bible. I put those on par with the Bible, since they are actually from the Bible. So according to Hulse's logic, I am doing something "blasphemous."

Further, what is really meant by putting 8:18 on par with scripture? Does it mean that we think 8:18 is really scripture? No. But we still think it is a divine truth, since all truth is God's truth. 2+2=4 is not scripture, but it is still truth. John 1:1 is not more true than 2+2=4, and Ps. 90:2 is not more true than Moroni 8:18. So in that metaphysical sense, they are all on par. They are all truths that ultimately come from God, who is the giver of all good things. The Bible is the written revelation foundational for our judgments concerning other so-called later revelations. Galatians 1:6-9 is clear about that. This is an epistemic sense of priority.

So we do in fact put 8:18 on a metaphysical, not epistemic, par with the truth in the Bible, and we also put the KJV direct quotations in the BM on metaphysical par with the Bible. Hulse confuses a metaphysical sense of priority with an epistemic one, and then claims that those who put any LDS source on par with the Bible are “blasphemous.”

Further, he even claimed that simply agreeing with Moroni 8:18 is giving “validity to Mormon scripture as equal with God’s Scripture, the Bible.” Again, “equal” in what sense? As truth (metaphysically) or as the means by which to judge whether the Bible or any other revelation is true (epistemically)? Hulse doesn’t seem to be aware of this distinction, and as a result, he falsely assumes the worst of those involved in the 8:18 campaign when they put 8:18 “on par” with what is revealed in the Bible.

All truth is God’s truth. Every truth is ultimately a divine truth, regardless of the immediate source. If you doubt that, then what truth isn’t God’s truth? So if I find truth from an unbeliever, I thank him or her, but more importantly, God gets the ultimate thanks. That does not entail everything the unbeliever believes is true, and thus it is also not an endorsement of him or her. The unbeliever still needs to repent and submit to Christ.

Divisiveness

Calling the 8:18 crowd “blasphemous” for agreeing with the spiritual truth contained in the BM and putting, not the BM, but that particular verse on par with Bible is really not conducive for unity among the brethren, let alone giving one’s brothers and sisters in Christ the benefit of the doubt. The 8:18 crowd are sincere believers who want to make a difference for the cause of Christ, and see more Mormons in the kingdom of God. The 8:18 crowd hardly even uses this method. They simply utilize it as a tool on particular occasions where they think it is warranted. They don’t even demand that everyone has to confront Mormons like they do. It is simply a different method of reaching the lost.

Unfortunately, as is often the case, micro-managers want to tell everyone how to do things. These guys want to regulate and promote their preferred method of reaching out to Mormons. As a result, these regulators end up putting God in a box. They assume God can’t work in some way they are not comfortable with. This means it is either their way or the highway… even going so far as to call one’s brethren “blasphemous” if they do things they don’t like!

This sows discord among the brethren. I cannot even begin to tell you how much controversy this has caused among those that utilize “stranger” or “confrontational” evangelism with Mormons! Confrontational evangelists have had in-fighting before, but never have I seen anything like this, and I have been a missionary to Mormons for almost 30 years now! Typically, the in-fighting is not among confrontational evangelists, but the in-fighting is within the Church—between the confrontational evangelists and those who evangelize exclusively within the confines of established friendships.

Since God’s ways and thoughts are higher than ours (Isaiah 55:9), and since the Body is made of various members, each gifted in various ways (1 Cor. 12-14), it should not surprise us that God oftentimes works in ways we are not used to. Given that there are many well-respected believers who claim to utilize 8:18 for the glory of God (including former Mormons), given that we are to walk in humility, knowing that we often don’t see as clearly as we think we do, and given that the arguments against 8:18 are “straining at the gnat,” we ought to be more gracious toward our brothers and sisters who support 8:18.

Conclusion

Since LDS are still people made in God's image, they still partake of common everyday truth and grace. Again, Mat. 5:45 says, "[H]e maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." So we should expect that Mormonism gets it right in some areas. Even a broken clock is right at least twice a day. Mormons are right to hold we shouldn't abuse our children, for example. That truth doesn't originate from them. It originates from God from who is the Truth. But suppose I came to learn that truth from a Mormon, being raised by them. Am I no longer entitled to believe it is true? Or am I somehow validating Mormonism if I agree with them? Of course not! So the source of my immediate knowledge of a particular truth is quite different from the ultimate source of truth itself or my ultimate source of knowledge, since all good things ultimately come from God. God can use whatever immediate source to bring about whatever He wants (e.g., think of Baalam’s jackass or using King Cyrus as an anointed one).

So I think a reaction to even that statement about LDS and child-care shows how overly sensitive some of these in the anti-8:18 crowd are. I get that and I sympathize with that, especially with those like Hulse who used to be Mormon. My ex-Mormon wife tends to think in this overly reactive way, but she would never tell others that they could not use 8:18. Unity is more important for her.

Nonetheless, we are called to be charitable to LDS and respect them. It is just difficult to do that if one thinks there is nothing of value to them, including all their beliefs.

So I will extend grace to my overly reactive brothers and sisters, letting God take His time with them, and not forcing them to witness like I do. But I ask these brothers and sisters for the same grace to trust God with the way we use truth from not just the Bible, but also outside it. We both have the same goal, viz., we want Mormons to repent. Let’s pray for each other and focus our energies on getting people to come to heaven with us, particularly since people are going to hell every minute. Let’s not give the devil a foothold to waste anymore time on fighting amongst the brethren.

R. M. Sivulka
President, Courageous Christians United
August 29, 2011




© Copyright 2002-2014  Mormon Missions Midwest Outreach, Inc. All Rights Reserved. —Permission is granted to reproduce, provided content is not changed and this copyright notice is included.


Friday, May 30, 2014

Evolving Restoration?

Mormon Semi-Annual Conference April 5th-6th 2014, President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, 2nd Counselor (right)  to Mormon Prophet/President Thomas S. Monson (center) 1st Counselor President Henry B. Eyring (left).
By Rocky Hulse                                                                 May 25, 2014

     Being born and raised in the Mormon Church, I took notice of a statement in a talk given at the recent Mormon Semi-Annual Conference held over the April 5th-6th weekend. President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, 2nd Counselor to Mormon Prophet/President, Thomas S. Monson, gave an address at the “Priesthood Session” titled “Are you sleeping through the Restoration.”

     “In his priesthood session address of the general conference, President Dieter F. Uchtdorf referred to the character RiP Van Winkle, who slept for 20 years and awoke to find he had missed the American Revolution.
          ‘Today, I would like to take the same theme and propose a question to all of us who hold God’s priesthood: Are you sleeping through the Restoration?’ said President Uchtdorf, second counselor in the First Presidency.
     Rather than being complete at the time of Joseph Smith, the Restoration is an ongoing process, he noted.”

     That statement that “the Restoration is an ongoing process” struck me as odd considering that I was never taught that the “Restoration” was ongoing; rather, I was taught that as a Mormon I was a member of the “Restored” Church. There’s a huge difference between “Restored” and an “ongoing Restoration.”
     My last newsletter was about activist Mormon women challenging the status quo in Mormonism that only males, 12 years and older may hold the Mormon Priesthood. Also, with the status of marriage being challenged in courts across the nation, it may soon be the case that polygamy is ruled “constitutional.”
     What came to my mind was: Is this member of the “First Presidency” leaving the door open to capitulate to social changes going on in America today? By stating that the “Restoration” is an “ongoing process” allows the Mormon Leadership to change the position held since the Mormon Church was first organized that only men may hold the priesthood. “Ongoing Restoration” would allow a “new revelation” to be received that reverses the previously held position and would give the Mormon Leadership the ability to once again explain away changes to their doctrine that had been previously instituted by a “revelation” from God through one of their prophets.
     In 1978 the Mormon Prophet Spencer W. Kimball had a revelation that blacks, which had previously been denied the Mormon Priesthood, could now be ordained into its offices. This monumental change has been explained away in various fashions, but now is being promoted as the failing prejudices of the Church Leaders. Changes now though, could be explained away as just “ongoing Restoration.”

The Restored Church!

     In the Mormon Church, a daily high school class is taught, usually before the regular high school classes begin, which is called “Seminary”. Quite unlike “seminaries” in the Christian world, which are established college institutions with college degree programs of study, Mormon “seminary” is just a one hour class, normally taught at one of their local meeting houses, called a “ward.” One of the four year study courses when I was in high school and attended seminary was Church History and our text was “The Restored Church” by William E. Berrett. I still have the copy I used in my seminary class.
     I was taught as a young Mormon boy that I was a member of the “restored” church, “…the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth…” (Doctrine and Covenants, 1:30). I was taught that all other churches were false and the original church of Jesus Christ had been lost to the earth after the death of the apostles and had been restored through Joseph Smith.

“The Gospel Restored” by Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie

     The following are excerpts from an article titled “The Gospel Restored.” It was taken from the “lds.org” website. It was a talk delivered by Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie at an area conference held in Tahiti on March 2, 1976:

     “We have a glorious message for the world. It is the most wondrous proclamation of the last 2,000 years. It compares with the message of Peter, James, and John of 2,000 years ago. They went forth to proclaim that Jesus had risen from the dead. They testified that the resurrection was a reality.
     We come in this day with a proclamation of equal proportions. We announce boldly that the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ has been restored in our day….[notice this is a past tense statement “has been” instead of present tense “is being”]
     …We have received again every key and power and right that the ancient saints had. [notice this is a past tense statement “have received” not present tense “are receiving”] Once again the voice of God has been heard. Once again angels have ministered from his presence. Once again the Church and kingdom of God has been set up. [notice this is past tense “has been set up” not present tense “is being set up”]
     All of these wondrous things were predicted by the prophets of old. Their occurrence in our day began in the spring of 1820. The person chosen of God to be his prophet was named Joseph Smith. This young man desired to know which of all the churches was right. He poured out his soul to God in humble prayer. The hour had come for the opening of the new dispensation. The veil was rent. The heavens were opened. Messengers from eternity appeared. The young man was told that if he were true and faithful, he would be the instrument in the hands of the Lord for restoring again the fulness of the everlasting gospel. He was true to the trust given him.
     In process of time, line upon line, the gospel was restored. [This statement is past tense “was restored” not present tense “is being restored”] The Lord had to restore the knowledge and doctrines that the ancient saints had. [This statement is past tense “had to restore” not present tense “is restoring”] In large measure, he did this by giving a new volume of scripture…. we have another great volume of scripture. This volume is named the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is a history of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas. In it is recorded the plan of salvation. It tells what men have to do to be saved. It is in perfect and complete harmony with the Bible. It expands and clarifies many doctrines. It is a volume of holy scripture. It was given to men in our day by the ministering of angels .… As part of the great restoration the Lord sent many angels to minister to men. These angels gave priesthood and keys. Revelations were received. Arrangement was made to set up again the same organization had by the primitive saints. The name of that organization is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. [These last statements identify the Mormon Church as the “great restoration”] We hold the holy priesthood. Apostles and prophets have been called again upon the earth….The second great truth that men must believe is this: God has in these last days restored the fulness of his everlasting gospel; [The “restored fulness” is a finite statement, not an “ongoing restoration”] …come and take the added light and truth that God has restored in our day [“restored” not “restoring”] ….We testify that there has been a glorious wondrous restoration.” [This “talk” given by Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, was a statement of finality, it is restored, not a statement of the “ongoing restoration”]

“The Gospel Restored” by Mormon Seventy Hugh W. Pinnock

     Hugh W. Pinnock, was selected to be a Mormon General Authority, a Seventy, October 1, 1977. He was selected to be in the Presidency of the Seventy, October 4, 1986. During the October 1980 General Conference of the Mormon Church, Hugh Pinnock gave a talk titled “The Gospel Restored.” Even the title of this talk states the past tense, “Restored” position of Mormonism, not this new twist of “ongoing restoration.”
     I downloaded this talk from www.lds.org. Here are excerpts from that talk that clearly show the finality of the “restoration” rather than this new theme of an “ongoing restoration”:

      “As we study this reinstitution and the theological basis of the Church, we will find ourselves thinking about the questions that so many others have asked. What is the explanation for the growth and the amazing influence of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? What does make Mormons different? Perplexed scholars, social critics, religionists, and cultural observers have given many answers. Their

responses have ranged from describing the Church as a social abnormality that appeals to accomplishment-oriented people to such a simplistic idea as a  conservative church always generates interest during troubled times.
     However, the more deeply one wonders what makes us different from our nonmember friends and neighbors, the more certain is the answer: the Redeemer and other heavenly messengers personally restored the everlasting gospel to the earth. [“restored” is finite – no wiggle room] That is why we are here….Fortunately, the Restoration gives us the panacea that mends, directs, corrects, and heals; but if we don’t conform to this great God-given system, we will be like those unwise maidens who did not trim their wicks and fill their lamps with oil. We as a people areaction-oriented and work-inclined. Conformance to this eternal system of energy expenditures does provide the only complete set of answers, which the world so desperately needs.”

     Notice that this last few sentences are absolute in that this Mormon General Authority unequivocally states that “conformance to this eternal system [Mormonism]…does provide the only complete set of answers…” [this finite statement “complete”, leaves no room for flexibility, nothing pertaining to an ongoing restoration]
     As a born and raised Mormon who had it indelibly etched on their brain that Mormonism is the “restored Gospel,” I can’t help but wonder if this new “ongoing” twist is just a way to gloss over upcoming socially driven changes to their doctrine.


 © Copyright 2002-2014  Mormon Missions Midwest Outreach, Inc. All Rights Reserved. —Permission is granted to reproduce, provided content is not changed and this copyright notice is included.

Friday, April 11, 2014

An erie similarity between politics and ministry?


I've watched the political races over the years and commented to many people that a person had to be crazy to run for public office. After a season of political ads, I actually feel sorry for any candidate and their families considering the absolute abuse the candidates character is submitted to during the onslaught. Little did I know, over the 11 years since we entered ministry, the same scenario would be played out against Helen and me as well, over and over again.



I've found so called Christians to be more vicious than those who certainly are not saved;  quite a shocking finding on my part. As long as you agree with them, you're golden; however, the minute you disagree you become a pariah.


The "Internet" has also brought out the worst of human character in that the anonymity factor seems to have emboldened many to become quite vicious from the privacy of their living rooms. I dare say, if they were having a face to face conversation with the person they are deriding, the conversation would take a different course.


What's even more noticeable is the absence of true debate over an issue. Instead, debate has been replaced by ad hominem attacks. The inability to defend one's position with facts and reason, degenerates to attacking the other person. This is not only true in our experience with those of the Mormon faith, as we expose the false teachings of Mormonism, but it also has surfaced in a new entity, those who are trying to make their living off the "Internet" in Mormon Ministry. A large percentage of these new Mormon Ministries have been started by those who never were Mormons, but rather express a "heart for the Mormon people." Not to say that there are not those who are sincere and do a wonderful job at reaching out to those whom are lost in this false religion; however, we have been  very viciously attacked by some when my husband says: "Being an ex-Mormon, I don't see it that way, and here's why.



We have been "slandered, libeled, undergone copyright infringement, and certainly last but not least, experienced defamation of character." Not our words, the words of our attorney and friend who is chomping at the bit for us to turn him loose in the filing of an action against the offending parties.



Still asking myself: "Is this a result of my disagreeing with them? Is this deemed as a threat to their income?"



The New Testament shows us Jesus turned the other cheek, which we've been doing by not responding to the attacks for several years now. We also see Jesus driving the "money changers" out of the temple for their mockery. Pray we make the right decision here. The decision is coming soon.

Updated: June 10, 2013 
"Our Decision" -- It has not been an easy decision. We have prayed about this and others have joined us in praying.  We are left with no other choice, except to file charges against those involved posting untruths and false information about us both personally and about our ministry MMMO all over Facebook and the internet.
Fake MMMO page created by Art Haglund and posted on Rob Sivulka'sFacebook page.



Arthur Adam Haglund commenting on Rob Sivulka  Facebook page to create 'face' MMMO  page on Facebook
The two screenshots above were placed on Rob Sivulka aka Robert Michael Sivulka Facebook personal page in 2011 by Arthur Adam Haglund and left there until removed by Facebook for hate speech and harassment against Rocky and Helen Hulse president/founder of MMMO.
Arthur Adam Haglund original Facebook Profile Photo
Rob Sivulka did not remove them,  but left them posted on his profile.  If that weren't enough he encouraged other people to comment,  even though the comments were outrageous and untrue.  It continued on and grew more vicious.  Finally we did report them. Both of the screenshots along with all the comments were removed by Facebook, not by Rob.
Rob Sivulka with photo from 'Truth Outreach' TV show which clearly shows on Google photo is copyrighted.

Last month Rob Sivulka wrote an article,  filled with a number of untruths and slanted to make himself appear innocent of any wrong doing.  He attacked us personally using our ministry and our names personally on his website blogs and on Facebook.  He took a "Screenshot of our Ministry's TV show 'Truth Outreach' which is on our website and our YouTube channel used only for airing our TV show 'Truth Outreach'. 

Was this the fist time Rob Sivulka has taken photos of us off copyrighted websites? "NO"  The first one he admitted to doing when Rocky called and confronted him.  He had placed a close friend of ours website Frank Kirkman's Mountain Meadow Massacre site  right under our photo.  Rob, claimed during the phone call he got it off the website; however, when caught in his lie he remove the photo and the website under it.  The photo (in question)  is also on the back of Rocky's book 'When Salt Lake City Calls' the photo of us was taken at the CTN - station WTJR in Quincy, IL where our TV show 'Truth Outreach" was filmed.   After being caught placing two photos he had no permission to post,  Rob took a 3rd photo, which is still posted on his blogs and several other Facebook pages and Websites even though he has no permission to use it.
Rob Sivulka sending private messages to people commenting on the Facebook Fan Page for Mormon Mission Midwest Outreach trashing Rocky and Helen Hulse personally and MMMO.

Rob Sivulka sending private messages to people commenting on the Facebook Fan Page for Mormon Mission Midwest Outreach trashing Rocky and Helen Hulse personally and MMMO.
Here above is proof Rob Sivulka ,  himself is going down the Facebook fan page for our ministry Mormon Missions Midwest Outreach, Inc. sending his own blog to people who are commenting on MMMO's Facebook page and different topics.  We have chosen to post only two; however, there are more which could be revealed.
 Rob Sivulka showing the name of his website CCU blog and directing people on his personal Facebook page to it after it was removed by Facebook for hate speech and harassment.


          Rob Sivulka titled his website CCU blog:  "Hulses - Sowing- More- Discord-Among-the-Brethren"

However,  who is really  "Sowing Discord" among the Brethren with their behavior behaving like this and encouraging others to do likewise? 

Does this not shine a bright light on his walk with the Lord,  when he is willing  to stoop to sending out his own blog to those on our MMMO Facebook fan page?  

We would have never known Rob Sivulka was doing this if some of our friends had not contacted us and questioned why they were receiving these private messages from Rob.

Not only is Rob Sivulka sending out his blogs to others,  but one of his board members and a close friend of his is doing the same thing.   
Rob Sivulka outrageous lies were posted on the Facebook page Mormon & LDS Facts 

Rob Sivulka's website CCU blog "Hulses - Sowing- More- Discord-Among-the-Brethren" as you can read in the "Screenshot" is signed:  "the Facts Admin Team"

Who is the Facts Admin Team?  We know one is a close friend of  Rob Sivulka and also a member on his ministries board.  There are other names we know on the "Facts Admin Team", but chose not name them at this time.

Now,  let's set the record straight here.  After an Album of photos from the Capstone Conference in SLC April 2013 was posted showing what Rob Sivulka had done was placed on our Facebook Fan page only two people were commenting Russ Bales was the worse,  he simply would not stop.  He was asked a number of times to please stop.  Finally,  a statement was put up saying the topic was closed to comments and further comments would be deleted. 

We are completely frustrated by the untruths Rob wrote in his blog,  including accusing me of putting words in the mouth of a third person who is a friend of ours who commented once.  As a last resort, I did what I said I was going to do I deleted the photo, along with all the comments. 

Sadly, that gave Rob the opportunity to do what he always does draw attention to Rob Sivulka.  So along comes his attacking blog against us.  Was this the first one? No!  In May 2011 he wrote a blog,  attacking my husband for not agreeing with his friend, Aaron  yet we chose to remain silent and remained friends with him. 

What caused this "Discord"?  God knows and God sees everything and He knows who is behind all this gossip and who began and is continuing to spread lies.  Those behind this will one day give an answer to Him,  unless they repent.  We pray they do.

The question has now become --- Who is really Sowing-More-Discord-Among-the-Brethren and Why?

Perhaps, what has now come to light will answer the question. "Who is really Sowing-More Discord-Among-Brethren" and working with whom to do so?

In Rob's blog he states he only came to the "Capstone Conference" for a short time to get a book autographed and had to leave because people were coming to him home.  However,  was that the truth or is this the truth?
These photos clearly show people were already at his home during the conference,  not arriving at his home.  While at Capstone as he attempted to get out of Calvary Chapel quickly,  he invited others over to his home to join the party.  Again, why the lies?
During Capstone Conference on April 13, 2013
Group Watching Capstone Conference April 13, 2013
 
Wendy Jensen , Russ Bales and others having a meal during Capstone Conference April 13, 2013


Rob Sivulka posted another attack blog on his website CCU blog



When MMMO as a ministry thinks no person/persons can sink any lower in their attempts to drive us off Facebook, it happens again: This 'Fake' profile showed up on Monday: Porter Rockwell (Helen Ann Hulse) inserted underneath name .

Why was it created by whom and for what possible reason.

It is vile/vicious and vengeful. it is using the name of the well known LDS bodyguard Porter Rockwell (Helen Ann Hulse) inserted underneath.

Claims to be "Drama Queen" at Mormon Missions Midwest Outreach, in Cedar Park, Texas.

It as links to this page, shares from this page and posted a copy of Rocky's book 'When Salt Lake City Calls'. A link to Cedar Park, Texas which includes our address.

Whoever this turns out to be has added one more thing to the growing list of crimes which have already been committed. It does appear the workings of a very sick individual and a heart filled with evil. However, it is still a crime.

Another thing this "FAKE" profile enjoys doing is publishing this page and then unpubishing it -- Is that to keep from getting caught by Facebook or worse posting more trash leaves it up long enough it gets shared?

We aren't sure and to be honest we don't care. All they are showing is more of the hatred and bitterness inside of themselves.

It is apparent they didn't think it was up long enough to get caught, but it did. Now we have several screenshots for the attorneys. We are mailing off copies to the IRS for their folder tomorrow with this new information to added to the complaint on file.

We are and have been praying for these individuals. We are asking other believers in Jesus Christ to join us in our prayers. As the pain and hurt for telling someone the truth doesn't even compare to the pain and hurt that awaits for the unrepentant in the next life.
LDS bodyguard "Fake Profile Porter Rockwell" -  Using co-Founder of MMMO (Helen Ann Hulse) 
                                                                            
  LDS bodyguard "Fake Profile Porter Rockwell"- Using co-Founder of MMMO (Helen Ann Hulse)  




 John R Merilatt founder of Ephesians2Ministry profile photo which mocks Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. founder of the LDS Church.

LDS bodyguard "Fake Profile Porter Rockwell" -  Using co-Founder of MMMO (Helen Ann Hulse)
 
 

The source of the above "Fake Profile Porter Rockwell  Using the co-Founder of MMMO (Helen Ann Hulse) has been located dated backed to Saturday May 14, 2011

Eph2Ministry blog below which changed and updated from what was written filled with untruths and vile comments.

Saturday, May 14, 2011
Helen Ann Hulse of Mormon Missions Midwest Outreach
As you get involved with apologetics and start to rub LDS apologists the wrong way you will soon get attention that you may or may not want. I myself could care less for if they are trying to go after me then that just means they will leave others alone. To me some of the comments you see are funny. They claim they are Christian however I will show you some of their comments and I will let you be the judge of that. 
The original title of this blog was "Oh the Child's Play" because I had the pleasure of noticing that a certain Anti-Christian (LDS apologists)or so I thought, who went under a fake facebook profile by the name of Porter Rockwell had become fascinated with me. For the privacy of others that were involved I will stick with their first names only but I'm sure most of you will know who they are. Because the person in question has decided to go after our ministry I decided to play right back by letting them notice my profile picture. Sure enough it didn't take long however their reaction went even further than I expected. This is exactly what you need to be aware of because this is the real reflection of their hearts of which God is no part of it. This is how the conversation started.
What makes the following conversation more interesting is the fact of who was behind Porter Rockwell.  That's right it is a so called "Christian" who runs a 501c3 ministry to Mormons.  I never could understand why an apologist would invest the time to try and research my past and it turns out they didn't.  Because I told this person over Skype the information who then in turn tried to use the information to make me look bad.  Who is this person you ask?  Helen Ann Hulse of Mormon Missions Midwest Outreach.  I have wanted to avoid bringing up issues like this because I was wanting her to leave the past in the past.  Now that she insist on trying to run peoples names through the mud I thought some of you might be interested in knowing the reality behind her so called "Christianity".  Feel free to view her confession and then please feel free to read how she hides behind the image of an LDS Danite.
Why is this important you may ask.  Well for years Helen has cried that her ministry has been under attack by a few people on facebook.  Funny thing is most of the information that was being fed to them if not ALL of it was being done so by Porter Rockwells profile.  Why the need for this?  Now that she has gotten rid of the Porter profile she has turned her attention to any and all people who have once helped her or stood up against her un-Christ like behavior. FYI When the following conversation took place I was under the impression I was talking with a Mormon.
John Merilatt - Porter. You seem intimidated by my pic.  I'm messing with you and I?  I live in Vancouver Washington.  Feel free to swing my way.  I'll have coffee waiting.
Porter - You are a joke. Me intimidated by you John? Now that's funny!
John Merilatt - I'm not saying you are. I am just going off your posting.
 Porter - You've never been Mormon so what the hell are you up too?
John Merilatt - You are correct.  I've never been.  Does that disqualify me from wanting to share the Gospel with the LDS?
Porter - keep your gospel
John Merilatt - I will.  And I will also share it with those who know hey can' live up to yours.  God Bless.
 Porter - use your wives face cream or make remover on the photo... you don't look good like a joker or clown.
John Merilatt - You are correct I don't.  However Joseph and his religion of many colors does. 
Now at this point since he knows she won't convince me of "the error of my ways" the normal thing you will see them do is go character assassination mode. They do this in order to get you upset or to get you frustrated to the point you may say something you normally wouldn't.
Porter - get some dental work done!
John Merilatt - Wow.  That is the best you can come up with?
John Merilatt - Please.  If you want to play children's games there are playgrounds for that.
Porter - you would know, right? 
John Merilatt - You are correct.  I have 2 little ones.  A part of being a parent.
Porter - Ha! 
John Merilatt - Le me know when you've matured a little.  I'll be around. 
At this point she tried to make the conversation even more personal. She heard my past and tried to use it against me as if I have something to hide. So for those of you who do care let me explain part of my past. After graduating college I got married and moved from a town I refer to as Hickville Oregon up to Vancouver Washington. I then entered the U.S. Air Force Reserves. Upon completion of training it was clear that my wife and I had a separation between us and I couldn't figure out why for some time. After some time passed the truth came out that while I was gone my wife was unfaithful. We attempted to work things out but divorce came and we moved on. This brings me to her next attack.
Porter - with your two wives?
John Merilatt - Your the one who's LDS.  You should know more about that than me.  It isn't in my doctrine.
Porter - I didn't divorce my wives, you did...
John Merilat - You act like I have something to hid.  Yes I am divorced.  And I had every Biblical reason to do so.  As if that is any of your business.
Now if this is not enough here are some other comments made on Porters page.
Greg - I would like to see John Merilatt and any of his supporters give a picture of Mohammed the same treatment and then post that on a Facebook page for Muslims.  It's easy to kick a target that doesn't fight back. It doesn't take bravery to be a bully.
Well Greg Islam is not a religion we know enough about to make that kind of reference to. Even then Greg they don't claim to use the Bible like you do. I also love the reference to kicking a target that doesn't fight back. Joseph insulted us from the very beginning and your pride refuses to allow you move past petty games. Last but not least "It doesn't take bravery to be a bully." You are correct, for you go a lot farther than I ever would. I have never gone after your personal character or anyone else's in order to scare them off. To bad it doesn't work with me.
Peter - The example of John Merilatt and his ministry is the main reason why I do not trust any ministry what so ever when it claims to care to love Mormons, not that I am asking for care or love.  I know my Church is True and that I have a living Prophet that leads me and that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Brother and I say these things in his name..... Amen
Well Peter I wouldn't expect you to trust us. Our goal is to help those in bondage that want a way out to find one. It isn't for Anti-Christians such as yourself. I would ask you this question. If you see a dear friend of yours walking into a field with countless land mines would you keep your mouth shut or allow them to believe what they want? We all know what you "Know". I always love how when there is nothing else to say or you don't have an answer you have to tell yourselves again what you "Know".

This one is one of my favorites...
Peter - I know ha all these ministries that claim o reach out to Mormons are controlled and being led by the children of Satan....... Yes I did say that..... if you have proof that you follow Jesus Christ then give it and don' play games..... if not then go back to Hell with Satan and don't let the doors of Hell hit you in the Ass.
Really? At this point his true colors have come out. So any group that reaches out to Mormons is controlled by Satan huh? Do I have proof I follow Jesus. Absolutely I do. I give my life to serving him however he calls me to. It just so happens that he has laid it upon my heart to try and reach the LDS and JW's. You both claim to be the only true church and organization that can speak for God and yet neither of you have valid answers to Biblical questions we ask. You in turn spit out responses like the one we see here. Can't you just feel the love with his comments?
Last but certainly not least...
Gregory - John, did you forge to wear your WWJD bracelet yesterday?  this isn't very nice.
Well Greg. What would Jesus do? What did he do is the better question. Jesus stood up against those who were perverting his Gospel. Jesus got angry at those who were making a mockery out of his house. He claimed to be the only way of which was not open to interpretation or feelings. He claimed to be the great "I am". We as Christians are called to be salt and light. Salt on an open wound hurts doesn't it? If you don't know try it and get back to me. Ever turned the lights on after having been in a dark room sleeping? Why not look into what the long term affects of being subjected to intense light can do and get back to me.
I hope Helen understands that I want no harm to come to her. I pray that she stops her campaign before she ruins what reputation she has left.  Upon confession, and promise to stop her smear campaigns this article will be removed. Because things like this have to stop.
May God bless you and keep you safe.

13 comments:

  1. Wow! I am praying for you Helen Hulse. Satan has gotten hold of you. Please repent and turn back to Jesus.








    1. I have seen other screen shots where Helen Hulse has said hateful and disgusting things about really good friends of mine. This is just more evidence that she needs mental help in my opinion. I had a run in with her and I "unfriended" her on Facebook as I do not care for drama. It was reaching the point of down right scary. Helen wrote to me and demanded to know why I unfriended her. She then went on a rant and called me non Christian because I had the nerve to block her profile.
      I am so sick and tired of her need for spotlight and attention. Please Helen, this is not about YOU, it is supposed to be about bringing TRUTH and LIGHT to others. It is not the Helen and Rocky show.
      Thanks John, keep up the good work.
      Joey
    2. Joanne, I'll never forget how this whole mess almost made you withdraw from your new Christian friends online. I'll never forget how these certain people seemed to work together to harass others for no good reason. But I'll always praise God for bringing us through that difficult time and how he blessed our friendships to make them rich & strong. You are a rock and a prized daughter of God . I don't know how anyone who knows you would ever 'question' your Christianity. God bless you my Sister and I love you!
    3. Princess, you helped and encouraged me greatly when I was so shaken up and you said "do not leave facebook". I also remember how you came under attack for encouraging me to stay. I was stunned when a woman I believed a friend told me that she was the one who made a big stink saying I was using copy written material and reposting it without giving MMMO credit.
      I simply got things off the internet and posted it, but they love a fight and stir up trouble when there never should have been trouble. Credit was given where credit was due.
      I pray for them and I really hope their eyes are opened from the deception they are all under over there and if they do, I will embrace them with opened arms. I do not hold a grudge. However, seeing this ongoing problem and the number of people they have hurt, I am not going to hold my breath. I have faith that God will bring them to account and they will have the scales removed from their eyes.
      There has to be peace in the body of Christ.
      I love you Princess, and I thank God for friends like you.
      Joey
  2. Thank you for bringing more of the Rocky and Helen horror show to the attention of other Christians. They are damaging the body of Christ and smile while they do it. I have blocked her from my page and Helen called my unchristian when I did so. I am thankful that she is not my judge come judgement day and decides who is Christian and who is not.
    I pray for Helen and Rocky, that this madness stops since Rob has brought their latest attack on a fellow Christian to light on his page, Courageous Christians.
    God bless
    Joey
    Reply
  3. Clearly this type of behavior is not fitting for anyone who claims to be a Christian. This is very sad and disappointing.
    Reply
  4. This kind of behavior by her is just wrong. Thank you for letting me know. I will make sure to stay away from her and her "ministry".
    Reply
  5. John, it's a tragedy to see this type of behavior from someone who claims to represent a legal 501c3 Christian ministry. You didn't deserve to be harassed and have your past thrown in your face by this masked LDS assassin. I too had my personal information misused by this Porter Rockwell and know how you feel. We both know how much we have suffered on account of this person and I turn my case over to the Lord for His perfect justice.

    Based on everything I have witnessed over the past few years, I don't believe that the person who hid behind this fake Porter Rockwell has a relationship with Jesus Christ as they claim. I pray for this person and all those who join her in her ungodly activities and harassment against others. I bless them and hope that they will come to repent of all their deeds before they have to stand before the Savior. He promised to vindicate His servants and doesn't like it when people abuse His children. God is not mocked. What goes around will surely come around too.

    Jesus said: "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

    God bless you and be with you in your ministry efforts.

  6. Demon possession is what is wrong here. The Hulses are not saved. I do not see and did not ever see them lead others to JESUS. They just bashed a religion and are trying to make a name for themselves for the love of money.
    Reply
  7. What an evil woman. I feel sorry for her husband.








    1. I believe that the man is an enabler. He should speak up and stop the insanity, so I do not feel sorry for him at all. Pray pray and pray some more for them.
  8. What a joke this blog is with it's altered emails and comments. Wendy Jensen and John Merilatt (Ephesians 2 Ministry) both known prevaricators, along with several people commenting here have and are working together.

    There are so many lies posted here why waste time responding any of them. I will make sure the Hulse's get a copy of this trash.









    1. Altered? The only alterations made is to remove names of those who don't wish to have their name continued to be ran through the mud by Helen directly or indirectly. Wendy and John both known prevaricators? Spoken by someone defending a person who must still think they are running for prom queen. Listen. There are COUNTLESS people who have asked her to stop with the high school drama only to have them be her next target. So please make sure Helen gets a copy. We along with everyone she's running through the mud will not be bullied by her idol threats of an IRS attorney or a Texas DA. Newsflash!!! An IRS attorney only cares about tax related issues. A Texas DA only cares about issues related within the state of Texas. So please, when she wants to apologize and promises to end the drama then as promised this blog will come down and not a moment sooner.
We did receive a copy of the above blog Ephesians 2 Ministry,  as posted.  It has been mailed to the IRS department handling an open investigation of one 501c3 ministry currently.  It's known Ephesians 2 Ministry is now a 509 thus it also falls under the same 501 IRS non-profit rules.  As for those commenting on the other website/blogs,  it's all the same group of people.  You may believe this isn't serious, but it is illegal.  Our ministry is located in Texas and this case is open and was filed in the State of Texas.  As for the "Altered" emails they are "Altered" which can be proven and will be proven. 

It's now July 18, 2013 yet Arthur Haglund aka presidentin08 claims he has 'NEVER' created a blog, when the facts show otherwise and it remains on Courageous Christians Untied website under News since May 2013. 
Click here for blog.

Add Comment
Arthur Haglund says...

"WHY did this one get pulled, has Helen and the coward of a husband of hers file a real lawsuit against you guys?
TRUTH is a positive defense in all legal matters. do not give in to Helen's insanity!" (6/14/13)

Arthur Haglund says...

"Helen thinks that because I posted this comment that the blog link above was created by me and has, slanderously, libelously stated so for a second time on her blog. Please, for the record, state that this blog was not created by me. It will be helpfull for the lawsuit against them." (7/29/13)


Updated on 8/15/13 - Notice to 'all' commenting on Rob Sivulka's website and blog.  Prepare your documented proof you have posted against us which is either Libel/ Slander or both.

Libel vs. slander

Libel is the use of false, defamatory claims about someone in written or printed form. Slander likewise denotes false statements that damage a person’s reputation, but it is committed orally or in any other transient form. Both words have complex legal definitions and connotations, which we won’t explore here. Legal complications aside, all you need to remember is that libel is written and slander is spoken. Slander is also often used informally as a synonym of defamation. Both words function as both nouns and verbs.

Names of those who have posted outrageous lies in the order they were posted:
1).  R. M. Sivulka
April 29, 2013
Updated May 2, 2013
2).  Lori Vogt says...
(4/29/13)
3).  Sandi Roberts says...
(4/29/13)
4).  Princess Surjopolos says...
(4/29/13)
5).  Desiree Hollis says...
(4/29/13)
6).  Suzanne Witt says...
(4/29/13)
7).  Wendy Jensen says...
(4/29/13)
8).  Arthur Haglund says...
(4/29/13)
9).  Ron Flinders says...
(4/29/13)
10).  J.R. Merilatt says...
(4/29/13)
11).  Russ Bales says...
(4/30/13)
12). Steve Dealy says...
(4/30/13)
13).  Joey Ferguson (Tibbits) says...
(4/30/13)
14).  Princess Surjopolos says...
(5/1/13)
15).  Russ Bales says...
(5/1/13)
16).  J.R. Merilatt says...
(5/1/13)
17).  Sharon Taylor says...
(5/2/13)
18).  Rob Sivulka says...
(5/3/13)
19).  Princess Surjopolos says...
(5/3/13)
20).  Arthur Haglund says...
(5/3/13)
21).  Joey says...
(5/3/13)
22.  Russ Bales says...
(5/4/13)
23).  Princess Surjopolos says...
(5/5/13)
24).  Joey says...
(5/5/13)
25).  J.R. Merilatt says...
(5/9/13)
26).  Einstein says...
(5/9/13)
27).  Arthur Adam Haglund says...
(5/16/13)
28).  Ricky Szewczyk says...
(6/10/13)

There were only a few comments by others than the names listed above,  thus their names were not included.  We are not sure why they would comment in the manner they did without contacting us directly nor knowing the whole story. 

It's an important thing all of us should remember; when one hears or reads something be careful you don't get a hold of the wrong half.

As a result of the website/blog by Sivulka we discovered another blog dated May 14, 2011 written by J. R. Merilatt which had few comments on it.  We had no idea it had been written and were completely unaware of it. 

However, one thing stands out in Merilatt's blog it's the same group of names and a connection with Merilatt,  her name is Wendy Jensen. 
 

Update: August 26, 2013
We were notified Rob Sivulka cannot stop with his hatred and his drama using us and this ministry to get attention.   On August 20, 2013 he's back posting on his personal Facebook page attempting to get himself attention with the same old group of names and the same old re-hashed 'Lies' having just finished reading what Rob posted and the email he says he receive.

Here's some free advice Rob - Reread the email clearly written by one of those involved in the the slander/libel and it to can be traced by its IP address.  It didn't take long to trace the email, it came from the UK. 
"Hi Rob,

Helen told me a long time ago not to get involved with other ministries and not to trust some of the Salt Lake ministries. All tho I have kept clear of ministries over the past two year, Helen still from time to time sends me messages telling me to be careful and not to trust anyone. I realised a long time ago that the only person I could trust was myself so pulled away from MMMO and then started to be attacked by both Rocky and Helen with the help of a number of others.

When I visit my ... home usually twice a year, Helen once asked me if I could attend any meet up groups and let her know what was done. I never attended any groups.

I felt that I was being used so ran back to the church for safety and that's when the full scale attack on me started by Helen. it resulted me in reporting MMMO to Facebook and involving my legal team whom contacted the local sheriffs department in Helen's home town of Round Rock.

Helen removed all comments from her Facebook page and her MMMO page after Facebook blocked her pages for a number of times.

I hope this gives a little insight."
August 20 at 5:15pm · Like · 1"

You are digging your own holes deeper and deeper with gossip.   Should you not stop for a moment and think of the damage you have already caused and are causing by passing hearsay from person to person?   How is this leading anyone out of Mormonism or the world?  Have any of you shared the gospel of Jesus Christ in one of your comments or have you all repeated the same false things spread about us and MMMO?

 Rob Sivulka , this certainly shows a mature Christian minister (street preacher) as he likes to known. You block us to keep us from seeing your Facebook page. Really, why?  Might you think you can  continue the lying and having others believe those lies without knowing or seeing both side? The answer to that one is "Yes".  Why?   It is the same group of people who continue to slander our names and agree with your whining. 


Everyone else deserves the answer to these three questions, Rob Sivulka.
 

1). Where was this email sent from (what country)?

2). Did you make friends with him after he provided the above email filled with his lies against us and MMMO?

 

3). Did you attempt to verify one word in his email or even who he was?

You either knew and posted his lying email or you wanted to believe his lies so badly you simply posted them without finding our who in fact he is. Either way, it was shameful and disgraceful behavior from someone in Christian ministry.


Since you, Rob Sivulka refuse to answer these three questions,  we are doing it for you.


1).  the email came from the UK

2). Yes, you made friends with him.  He is using the name Pete R. Mako


3).  No,  you have not 'cause it wouldn't fit your agenda and those working with you.

This guy has used numerous names he is a pathological liar and has been pretending to be an ex-Mormon for many years on the MIT forum board and has fooled several people. Yet, several of those commenting on your current Facebook topic Rob Sivulka
Just got this email... "I left the Mormon church a few years ago but due to actions of the Hulses I was driven back to the Lds Church for safety. again I have gone inactive from the Church and thinking of leaving altogether"


What do all of you care more about smearing us or sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ with those who don't know Him as their Lord and Savior? 


Update:  September 11, 2013  -
You all revealed who today - All these screenshots speak for themselves.
Names of people on CCU

Names of people on CCU #2

Private Messages Sent to us on Facebook by Arthur Adam Haglund

"For the love of money is a cause of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a sorrow" (1 Tim. 6:10).


We are as ministry do not use funds donated to MMMO to support ourselves.  Rocky is a retired Naval Officer, 33 years on active duty and receives the retirement he earned.  He currently works a full-time job. We don't live off of other people's money, we work.




Updated 9/12/13 -  As of today here is proof this is still posted and we are being discussed on Rob Rob Sivulka'a Facebook personal page.   We are accused of being in ministry for no other reason than other people's money and the sale of Rocky's book.  This is an outrageous lie!
 Lori Vogt telling others to report MMMO fan page on Facebook to get it removed.



Update 9/17/13 - There is going to be evidence posted on this blog which shows what was originally on the Facebook pages of those involved in the smear against Helen Ann Hulse and the false information continuing to be posted against this ministry MMMO.

Update 9/21/13 - 
Written by a Christian or someone filled with hatred?  Arthur Adam Haglund
"Here is a little story I would like to tell.
A while back, there was a conference in which the daughter of a well known anti cult apologist was speaking at. when she was done and before another speaker started, a nice man wanted to speak to her and get a picture with her. this is not uncommon. the following speaker disliked and his wife positively HATED this nice young man (not unusual, she hates lots of people). The next speaker decided to not say anything there, but a blog and social site entry was made, claiming that the speaker was rudely made to wait and could not start on time. This speaker also said he did not know this young man, even though they have known each other for some time.

The posted threads on the blog and social site stated that this man acted in a bad way. the previous speaker commented on the incident (she had been highly praised by the second speaker) and stated that things did not transpire as the blog and social page claimed. then the posts were removed, and then the speaker and his Mrs started making more false claims against the nice young man when HE mentioned it in his blog. With the daughter of the famous man's comment now gone, the accusation continued and still does.

All the while, this man and wife claim to be victims and lie and lie and lie.

Oh, they Claim to be God's servants, as well.

This ends the story, a sad tale to be true, and one that will have no happy ending until the man and his hateful wife repent and make amends, including telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

I doubt it will happen, though."

The above harassment - Art you and your friends and getting the attention you so wanted, but the result is not going to be what you wanted or expected.

Why?  None of you know the truth.
1).   The truth is not within you any of you and it began with Wendy Jensen in South Jordan, Utah and her lying gossip.
 

2).   None of you know the truth about this ministry or us from 2001-to the day we drove out of Nauvoo in June 2008.   Where we went, what we were doing nor why we are located in Texas.

 

Next updates coming: Will be about the time we as a couple spent in Nauvoo, IL as the directors of the Nauvoo Christian Center which will contain the truth, the whole truth and nothing, but the truth with the proof to back up every word.   Stand by for heavy rolls 'cause it is coming and it will include every single person involved in what happened at NCVC.


3). Heads up prepare to answer this lie you posted about us on Rob Sivulka's website CCU' blog,  Steve Dealy - You posted the comment below:
Steve Dealy - NCVC


Steve Dealy says...































"Thank you Rob for speaking out. I have been on the receiving end of their attacks for about seven years. No matter how much I would try to partner with them here in the Nauvoo area I was always treated as competition and an enemy. The ungodly drama that follows in the wake of the Hulses is truly shocking and sad. 'Before his downfall a man's heart is proud..." (Ps. 18:12) I do pray that they repent for slandering so many within the Body of Christ. " (4/30/13)

Our first question to you, Steve.

1).  When, where and with whom did we as a couple in an already established ministry in Denmark, Iowa meet you?  

While you are thinking about your answer remember this important fact.  We had two witnesses with us from California both in the same Ministry who were staying in our home.




Updated: 10/15/13 comments on CCU's blog by Rob Sivulka

Rob Sivulka prsident Courageous Christians United









Rob Sivulka says...

"Neither I, nor my board, endorse the disrespectful speech exhibited in allowing others to comment here. Having said that, the comments still have a point. It's up to you to make up your own minds concerning the truthfulness of this whole matter." (10/15/13)

Rob Sivulka says...

"Upon the advice of my board and my pastor, I have attempted to clean up the disrespectful language of certain others who have commented here against the Hulses. Edits or whole deletions of comments may continue as our board and my pastor sees fit in order to set a more respectful tone while preserving the overall intent of the authors. May cooler heads prevail! " (10/16/13)

Seriously, Rob after posting nothing, but vile hate filed comments including the 'fake' MMMO blogs above by Art Haglund,  you continue to egg people (plus 'fake' profiles' on to attacked us personally by name and MMMO's ministry Fan Page which was on Facebook at the time, you were doing this on your personal Facebook page since 2011.  The mocking and attacks when on from 2011 until they were 'ALL' removed by Facebook  -  Not by you, as you claimed on your Facebook page and yes we do have proof you claimed you removed it. 


So what did you, Rob do?  You moved your attack along with the same vile groupies to your CCU's  blog to began again after the Capstone Conference at Calvary Chapel in Salt Lake City, Utah held on April 12th and 13th, 2013





Why?   As was stated they were removed from Facebook and you needed a ventue.  Now, after months of these lies being posted you are going to take the advice of your board and pastor and attempt to clean up disrespectful language.  Oh boy,  that is a whopper!!   I (Helen) called you first, but had to leave a voice message and then called one of your board members Aaron Shafovaloff in July 2013 in an attempt to speak with you and at least talk about this situation that had gotten out of hand.  I agreed with Aaron to send you an email vise the phone call and you posted it on your website CCU blog rather than respond to it privately. 

 Aaron Shafovaloff ,  you are a flat out liar.  I've had the same cell phone number since '09 and spoken with you on it before.  So for you to say if you'd known it was me you wouldn't have answered the call.  Seriously,  you get calls from Texas while at work and answer them when you don't know whose calling?  Oh, that's laughable you are suppose to be working and you'll take unknown callers while on the job?  Again, Aaron you lied.   I did agree with you during our phone call,  it would be well for all parties to arrange for a conference call and even told you,  Aaron to call you,  Rob Sivulka and Bill McKeever about our conversation on July 9, 2013 and made sure I explained we were going to California and moving so it would be difficult to arrange until after we were settled.  We would be happy to have a conference call with all parties involved.  




All Rocky and I were asking was for you to take down your blog against us and stop using the copyrighted photo you, Rob took off our TV show 'Truth Outreach' after you had used two others photos of us.  
Another point why the urgent need to rush up on the stage during a seminar at the Capstone Conference and yet at the very same church Calvary Chapel in Salt Lake City, Utah same year 2013,  you waited and met one of the speakers at another Seminar, our friend Joel Kramer (who stayed in our home in Nauvoo, IL with Scott Johnson) for him to come to the church foyer?

Rob Sivulka rushed upon the stage during seminar as Jill Martin Rische Walter Martin's Religious InfoNet was attempting to leave after her presentation and Rocky Hulse Mormon Missions Midwest Outreach could begin his presentation.   Instead of waiting for her to return to her table in the church foyer the above photo is the proof of Rob's behavior at Capstone. 
Rob Sivulka getting yet another photo for his collection with Joel Kramer, SourceFlix - Living Hope Ministry.  This was another Seminar held at same church Calvary Chapel in Salt Lake City and in the church foyer where he should have taken his photo with Jill Martin Rische, Walter Martin's Religious InfoNet rather rushing up on the stage in the main sanctuary.


Rob Sivulka has been around those in ministry for years and there is no excuse for his rude behavior at the Capstone Conference vise the correct behavior at another seminar just months later at Calvary Chapel Salt Lake City, Utah.  



Grow up Rob,  your behavior on CCU's blog is anything,  but adult.   It certainly does not display the behavior of a Christian ministry to continuing to post the articles against us and then allow people you know are in fact know liar's and fake profiles to continue your agenda!   







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Rocky and Helen Hulse

Rocky and Helen Hulse
Defending Christianity From Mormon Doctrine